Renovations Of Your Dreams

Summary

In this episode of Local Grit, Alex Hobcraft interviews Robert Armstrong, the founder of Aberdeen Interiors and Aberdeen Plumbing. They discuss Robert's journey from a sales background to starting his own home renovation business, the challenges and successes along the way, and the importance of trust and shared values in business. The conversation also covers renovation trends, multi-generational living, and the impact of tariffs and supply chain issues on the industry.

Keywords

Local Grit, Robert Armstrong, Aberdeen Interiors, Aberdeen Plumbing, home renovation, multi-generational living, business values, renovation trends, Hamilton, supply chain

Takeaways

• Trust is essential when choosing a contractor.

• Multi-generational living is a growing trend.

• Local sourcing helps mitigate tariff impacts.

• Shared values are crucial for team cohesion.

• Renovation can significantly enhance family life.

• Professional design support is invaluable.

• Planning is key to successful renovations.

• Government support can ease construction processes.

• Adaptability is vital in renovation projects.

• Customer satisfaction drives business success.

• Building Trust in Renovations

• The Rise of Multi-Generational Homes

• Navigating Tariffs in Home Renovation

• The Power of Shared Business Values

• Transforming Homes, Transforming Lives

• Design Support: A Non-Negotiable

• Planning for Renovation Success

• Government's Role in Construction

• Adapting to Renovation Challenges

• Customer Satisfaction: The Ultimate Goal

Sound bites

"Trust is essential in renovations." "Multi-generational living is on the rise." "Local sourcing mitigates tariffs." "Shared values build team cohesion." "Renovation enhances family life." "Design support is invaluable." "Planning is key to success." "Government support eases construction." "Adaptability is vital in projects." "Customer satisfaction drives success."

Alex Hobcraft (00:05)

Welcome everyone to Local Grit on this very rainy October 30th, 2025. I am here with Robert Armstrong, who is the owner and founder of Aberdeen Interiors. And ⁓ we're going to chat today just about what it's like to have a home renovation, what it's like to have a home renovation business. And yeah, welcome to the show, Robert.

Robert Armstrong (00:30)

Thanks Alex, thanks for having me.

Alex Hobcraft (00:33)

Yeah, my pleasure. We've worked before and I love our conversations. So I'm really excited to chat with you just about your story in Aberdeen Interiors. you know, started from nothing, just you started ⁓ a home handyman company and you've grown it over the last 25 years. Can you tell us your origin story and what sparked ⁓ Aberdeen Interiors and what are those gritty moments from the beginning that you remember?

Robert Armstrong (01:03)

Yeah, thanks Alex. Yeah, it's definitely been a journey. I come from a sales and business development background in luxury retail. And I moved to Hamilton in 2011 from Toronto. I'd lived in Toronto for 10 years, but grew up in Hamilton, so was a bit of a homecoming moving back.

As my children were starting school, I was looking to go back into my previous career in retail. And given my family dynamic and my wife's demands on her schedule, decided to start up my own business. I was a hobbyist carpenter. I had always been

around, you know, mechanical and, you know, handyman and like my dad did everything himself at home and the rest of my family as well. So I had lots of learning opportunities growing up, never expected to do it for commercial reasons, but it was born out of a need to fit with balancing the needs of my family together with having a purposeful career. And so with that, I started doing just local jobs for

Alex Hobcraft (01:54)

.

it

Robert Armstrong (02:20)

First for immediate neighbors, know, they would see me building stuff in my driveway building furniture assembling cabinets and and doing some odd tasks around the house and and I would get chatting with the neighbors and next thing, know, I was doing Doing handyman work at their homes and and being referred to to their friends and neighbors Yeah, and that that organically grew so that started in 2012 September 2012

Alex Hobcraft (02:24)

you

Robert Armstrong (02:50)

and it very quickly evolved by 2014. We did our first full home renovation and my team at that point started to grow. By 2017, a close friend of mine was a master plumber and

Alex Hobcraft (03:12)

.

Robert Armstrong (03:13)

similarly looking for

balance to be more present with his family and we started working together and established a plumbing company together, Aberdeen Plumbing. And so that's been in operation now since 2016, 2017. And as things grew and developed and we started to, you know, find our niche in renovating the many old homes in Hamilton, the

Alex Hobcraft (03:16)

you

Robert Armstrong (03:43)

scope of work was focused more around

Alex Hobcraft (03:44)

you

Robert Armstrong (03:45)

luxury projects with a heavy design element and a lot of project management was was the foundation of of those bigger jobs and we ⁓ Decided to create a brand that fit with that and so Aberdeen interiors was born out of that initial handyman

Alex Hobcraft (03:49)

you

Robert Armstrong (04:04)

business and ⁓ And continues today. We have a team of 15 people

now in the construction side of our business and we focus on luxury renovations, remodels and additions in Hamilton and surrounding area.

Alex Hobcraft (04:21)

Nice, yeah. mean, with the, so with Aberdeen Interiors coming and Aberdeen Plumber, they were pretty close to each other in terms of inception. ⁓

How long would you say, was it within that two years that you started growing outside of your network and outside of your just local referrals?

Robert Armstrong (04:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's amazing. I really didn't have an advertising budget at all. think just, you know, until the last couple of years, you know, those, those early days, it was very much word of mouth, you know, branding our vehicles, putting out lawn signs, you know, all of our team members wearing a uniform, a branded uniform.

It was really those ⁓ simple ⁓ elements that helped to create brand awareness in our community. And as we got opportunities to work outside of our immediate community, outside of Kirkendall, Durand and Strathcona, and started to branch into Hankaster, Dundas, Burlington, Stoney Creek, Grimsby, ⁓ we really started to ⁓ branch out. And so even though we do have still

Alex Hobcraft (05:29)

.

Robert Armstrong (05:30)

a high concentration of projects,

in Kirkendall, Durand and Strathcona. It's great to be, you know, exploring more of those other markets just outside of Hamilton.

Alex Hobcraft (05:43)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. ⁓ Just shifting, ⁓ so talking about, can you walk us through, because a lot of people have desires for their kitchen and bathroom. So can you tell us a story of a kitchen or bathroom renovation that really tested your team's limits?

but and made an enriching experience for the family ⁓ that in a way that you didn't expect maybe that.

Robert Armstrong (06:07)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can definitely think of one. It was in Ancaster and it was during COVID, so it would have been early 2020, early 2021. Yeah, a unique situation where a family with young children were looking to create a multi-generational arrangement within their household.

and have grandparents and great-grandparents even come and all live together, cohabitate together in their large home. And so in order to meet all the individual needs that the ⁓ various family members had, we really had to strategize on how we were going to give everyone their own space so that they felt like they had a place that they could.

Alex Hobcraft (06:45)

Okay.

Robert Armstrong (06:59)

retreat

to and have their own peace, their own solitude when they needed it. And as well as to have some really fantastic gathering places to be able to celebrate together as a family and to be able to ⁓ work and meet and live their lives. There were some other unique needs too. ⁓ There were some mobility issues with some of the family members. And so it became obvious that putting in...

Alex Hobcraft (07:04)

. you

Robert Armstrong (07:29)

you know, a staircase lift or something that might be a more typical approach for those mobility issues was going to create some difficulty for, you know, the family as a whole. And so we ended up putting in an elevator, planning to put in a proper three story elevator in their home. And that was the first time we had undertaken a project like that. ⁓ And it definitely had its own unique challenges.

Alex Hobcraft (07:32)

you

Robert Armstrong (07:56)

Some you know unexpected things that came up

our elevator pit for example once we broke concrete and Exposed the area where we were going to be putting the pit for the elevator ⁓ All of the underground plumbing was right there right where the elevator was going to go and So we we had to pivot a number of times to be able to Work around these obstacles and to be able to achieve the result that we had planned for ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (08:01)

you you

Robert Armstrong (08:25)

Ultimately, the family now after living in the home for period of time, all of that, all of those ideas, those concerns, those ⁓ solutions

Alex Hobcraft (08:38)

you

Robert Armstrong (08:40)

that we came up with collaboratively together between our design team, the architect and the clients and their family members, we were really able to check a lot of boxes for all the individual family members' needs.

Alex Hobcraft (08:43)

.

Robert Armstrong (08:52)

as well as their collective needs. And now they have this beautiful, ⁓ highly functional space that would allow for them to, you know, be able to, yeah, have a wonderful family dynamic.

So actually this is their living room or one of their living rooms in the background image behind me.

Alex Hobcraft (09:12)

No, that's awesome. Yeah. No, that's great. I mean, it's funny how things when you dig and you start poking about how unnecessary, just something can pop up that you didn't think was going to be happening, like the plumbing situation. And when you're, when you're ⁓ taking on a project of that size, I know that you team up with interiors by Natalie and, and, and she is the

the design part ⁓ aspect of it, does she contribute to that part of the project or is she mostly just the after, ⁓ know, ⁓ putting in the sofas and the finishing touches?

Robert Armstrong (09:53)

No, it's very much a team effort and I think it all starts with trust as a foundation and to undertake, like for example, the project that I'm speaking about in Ancaster here that had the elevator, that was a $750,000 renovation. That's a significant investment.

Alex Hobcraft (10:12)

Wow.

Robert Armstrong (10:15)

And so, you know, someone doesn't enter into an agreement like that without there being a lot of ⁓ trust established. And it takes time to do that. ⁓ You know, we work with a variety of different designers and certainly ⁓ interiors by Natalie. Natalie Kurczanczyk has been a, you know, a foundational. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (10:37)

. .

Robert Armstrong (10:38)

support to our business over the last 12 years, working with many of our clients as well as bringing her own clients to us to work with to renovate their homes. And in fact, in the case of this project in Ancaster, this was Natalie's client. So she had trust in a relationship established and introduced me to the clients. And we were able to collaborate together and come up with solutions that were going to work for work for their family and fit within their their budgetary constraints.

as well.

Alex Hobcraft (11:09)

Yeah, so that brings up that leads to my next question perfectly. So are there any non-negotiable principles that you always fight for in interior design? Like is there something that where clients will push back on functionality or beauty, but you're like, no, we need to do this because of your years of experience. Have you encountered anything on this project or other projects that's a non-negotiable that you think is important for homeowners to understand?

Robert Armstrong (11:38)

Yeah, I think that the, you know, we often will get clients that don't feel, or perhaps that haven't been through a major renovation before, you know, ⁓ that see them, that don't want to ⁓ have interference from someone with contradictory ideas when it comes to design. Perhaps they feel that they ⁓ can navigate the design and selection process on their own without

and it's from experience.

I've learned that even if the clients are very much and they do lead the decision making, but ⁓ having professional support from someone who is able to translate ideas and concepts into tangible products that fit with that vision, is a great way of supporting a customer who does have great ideas and who does really know their taste and their needs really well. So that's a non-negotiable for us is making sure

Alex Hobcraft (12:15)

you .

Robert Armstrong (12:38)

that the customer understands that the

designer is not there to contradict them, to bully them into accepting the designer's ideas, but rather to complement those ideas and to help to find solutions with products that match their vision in an efficient way.

Alex Hobcraft (12:58)

Yeah, and I'm sure there are a lot of homeowners who like they don't know what they don't know. So having an expertise opinion would give them options to think about things that they probably haven't thought about.

Robert Armstrong (13:11)

Exactly. That's right. And, and you know, functionality definitely plays into that. So, you know, when we're talking about, ⁓ you know, flow, ⁓ like in a kitchen space, for example, you know, there's a lot of, ⁓ key function points in a kitchen for it to, you know, feel very natural when you're working in that kitchen space and, ⁓ you know, the fridge can't be too far away and the sink has to be in close proximity to prep areas and so forth.

Alex Hobcraft (13:37)

you

Robert Armstrong (13:39)

And yeah, unless you're a kitchen designer yourself, there's definitely things that you might overlook ⁓ or that you might compromise on that later you'd regret. And so we're really trying to make sure that our clients have all the support and professional insights that they can get in order to make the most,

in order to make an informed choice and, you know, hopefully reduce any potential regrets later on.

Alex Hobcraft (14:05)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. earlier you spoke about some challenges that you have where plumbing was supposed to be where you were supposed to be putting an elevator. There are lots of surprises that come up with a renovation, but on the business side, on your side, recently as we spoke about just before we got on.

camera here was just how supply chains and tariffs are being hit hard. We hear about it in the news. What are some challenges that your businesses face from these tariffs, if any, and how have you circumvented them or how have you come up with new ideas to work through it?

Robert Armstrong (14:48)

Yeah, no, that's that's a good question and I feel fortunate that ⁓ In terms of renovations and ⁓ renovations and remodeling specifically as well as plumbing There aren't a lot of ⁓ Tariff implications to our business directly in terms of the products that we're using in construction most of our

⁓ Building materials are locally sourced. know, they're Canadian lumber and a lot of Canadian made products that are going into the renovations and remodeling that we're doing.

There are a couple of exceptions, things like carpeting for example, which isn't super common for us to be working with anyway, but often those products will come from the US. I'd say that the biggest

Alex Hobcraft (15:29)

Well.

Robert Armstrong (15:40)

concern ⁓ when we see what's happening with tariffs is the uncertainty within the economy.

the potential for customers to pull back on their spending or feel like they need to defer it until the time that things do feel more stable in the economy and that there is more predictability between our relationship with the states.

Alex Hobcraft (15:54)

You

Robert Armstrong (16:05)

⁓ Fortunately for us, we've managed to ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (16:10)

Okay.

Robert Armstrong (16:10)

continue to secure work and right now we're booking into next summer and next fall. we have a good runway of about seven or eight months worth of work that's on the books now. But definitely that's a lingering concern and something I try to keep my finger on the pulse of just with following.

the news and talking to other business people like yourself about your experiences and the things

Alex Hobcraft (16:29)

Okay.

Robert Armstrong (16:35)

that you're seeing and seeing with your ⁓ clients.

Alex Hobcraft (16:43)

You've done great work. I've been in houses with the work that you've done. The gallery on your websites, they're amazing. You really do great work. I just want to share that with everyone because it looks great. What's an addition, something that, just an addition, a smaller project that you can think of.

Robert Armstrong (16:57)

Thanks,

Alex Hobcraft (17:03)

a kitchen or a bathroom or an addition that just changed the family's life in a positive way where they were just over the moon with how you change things.

Robert Armstrong (17:20)

Hard to pick one, but... ⁓ Yeah, I think I'd have to reference, I think this job, the one in Ancaster I spoke about, I think, I don't know about you, Alex, I I love my family dearly. I can't imagine, though, living with four generations of my family under the same roof. So... ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (17:22)

Ha ha ha.

You

Robert Armstrong (17:46)

But ⁓ I love the idea of it and I love it for this family and seeing them together and how much joy they get out of their family dynamic and being together and being able to support one another in one home is fantastic. And definitely it wouldn't have been possible without solutions like the elevator, for example, ⁓ the great-grandparent that lives in the home. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (18:01)

Okay. Okay.

Robert Armstrong (18:15)

⁓ like I said, has mobility issues and without that ⁓ elevator it wouldn't have been possible

for her to live in the home. And we future-proof things too by making sure that, you know, hallways and doorways are accessible, ⁓ that, you know, this grandparent's bathroom is accessible and has blocking in the walls for all the different places that over time they may need some additional support measures or grab bars.

⁓ You know, we've made sure that there's seamless transitions between different flooring types. So from tile flooring to hardwood flooring, that there's a seamless transition so that if there's a walker, if there's a wheelchair, if there's something of that nature, that there aren't any encumbrances in the home. so seeing how much joy they get out of it and being able to have this grandparent living together with them in their home.

Alex Hobcraft (19:10)

you

Robert Armstrong (19:14)

⁓ is definitely one of the things that motivate me each day. ⁓ The thing that I love the most about what we do is being able to come up with these solutions that do make a difference and do add

a lot of value ⁓ to our clients and elevate their lifestyle.

Alex Hobcraft (19:36)

No, that's, yeah, no, I never even thought of the transition between like thinking of the transitioning. I mean, I have done them in my own house. I'm terrible. I can't even hold a hammer properly. I'm the exact opposite of you. And that is one thing that, cause my mom and a lot of.

parents were an aging demographic and you need to think of those things. That's, yeah, never even occurred to me what would happen there. So when you're working with your team and you're hiring people, is there a specific skill set that you look for in your team? Is there a specific, you know,

just way of mannerisms that you look for or do you just want to try and get the best skills, technical people?

Robert Armstrong (20:35)

Yeah, that's a great question. I definitely have made my own mistakes over the years with hiring. The first time I tried to expand and grow my business, I wasn't well prepared for it. I hadn't put all of the right processes and systems in place to grow successfully. I hadn't clearly defined what all of the different...

accountabilities and deliverables were for each role within our business. so we very rapidly doubled the size of our team. But we focused almost exclusively on their

⁓ on the perceived skills that they had on the tools and ⁓ What resulted was? ⁓ Messy it wasn't cohesive there were a lot of different

Alex Hobcraft (21:27)

Hmm.

Robert Armstrong (21:29)

values that that these different people that came into the business had relative to the established people that were already on the team and so I I learned from that lesson and I stepped back ⁓ or scaled back a little bit

in order to prepare for future growth and put those systems in place and focused instead on making sure that we were hiring people that did share our values. ⁓ know, one of those principal values, ⁓ one of the principal values that we have is that we treat one another, our subcontractors, our suppliers and the community at large with the same gratitude and respect that we treat our clients. And I think that's...

you know, that's made a big difference in having a team that is cohesive, that is sharing the same values and the same foundational principles to deliver, ⁓ deliver a quality customer experience. ⁓ You know, and even we make sure that our subcontractors as well, sharing those values. And so, you know, when a customer does interact with employees from our Howard Dean Interiors team,

Alex Hobcraft (22:24)

You

Robert Armstrong (22:43)

our subcontractor electricians, plumber, HVAC technician, drywall contractor, painter, et cetera. There's all these different people that ⁓

come into a project at different phases. And we want to make sure that the customer sees that there's some cohesion there in terms of these shared values and principles when we're working in the customer's home.

Alex Hobcraft (23:07)

Yeah, because I mean, at the end of the day, it's your brand and your name that's going to be recognized regardless of the situation. I remember when we first opened Footprints, we hired our first teacher.

And she was a lovely person. And on paper, she ticked all the right boxes, masters in music. She has been playing since she was four years old. She had teaching experience. And then it was purely by luck. We had friends who took lessons with us, and they said that she was exceedingly boring and that her lesson was not fun at all. It was okay.

But it was something where, and what kind of sparked the question was just sometimes you can get the technically perfect, but there's no interaction with your client or what their expectations are. It's almost as bad as hiring, ⁓ you you need to hire people who think like you do is what I learned from that lesson and pretty much what you're saying there.

Robert Armstrong (24:20)

Exactly, yes. mean, of course they need to have the practical skills to, you know, execute the work that we do. But, you know, there's a lot of things that we can teach and help shape and mold. It's hard to teach those core principles or values, shared values that we have. And it's made a big difference in terms of the...

satisfaction that our management team and our office team and the different members of our team have in working with each other. Instead of ⁓ butting heads and ⁓ having very drastically different ideas about how to approach things, instead they're working more cohesively, more ⁓ cooperatively in order to ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (25:04)

Hmm.

Robert Armstrong (25:07)

deliver the result and the experience that we're ⁓ aiming for.

Alex Hobcraft (25:12)

Yeah. Looking ahead, what's a renovation trend that you see ⁓ happening or something that you think potentially is going to be coming that is redefining how people are living? Are you seeing more nanny suites ⁓ wanting to be developed? What's a trend that you're seeing?

Robert Armstrong (25:34)

Yeah, certainly over the last few years, we've seen more, you know, we've seen more situations where ⁓ clients are looking for multi-generational living. You know, maybe their kids are finished, finished school and just starting out in the, in the workforce. And, you know, they're not ready to, to fly the coop just yet. And so, you know, it's creating a living space for.

you know, them or potentially, you know, a child and their partner or even a young family initially has become, you know, a bigger component.

Alex Hobcraft (26:05)

you

Robert Armstrong (26:08)

Also, I think with all of the costs around care and aging, at ⁓ seniors' residences and so forth, I think there's more people that are looking for ways to ⁓

age in place and stay in their homes for as long as possible. And so they're ⁓ doing projects and improvements around their home that ⁓ help allow for that. And then of course, we also have

Alex Hobcraft (26:25)

You

Robert Armstrong (26:38)

parents that are that are aging and need some support ⁓ and in some cases it's practical to to have them move into ⁓ Have them move into our homes, right? So

yeah, we've definitely seen a lot more ad use SD use which are you know a secondary dwelling Whether that's attached to the existing dwelling or detached from the existing dwelling could be anything from a garage conversion to a garden suite to you know

basement ⁓ or an addition on the back or the side of the home to accommodate that secondary dwelling unit. It can also be a way of helping to offset, you know,

Alex Hobcraft (27:08)

Okay.

Robert Armstrong (27:19)

costs of mortgage. Homes have gotten a lot more expensive and so having some rental income can be a way of helping to support homeownership.

Alex Hobcraft (27:30)

Is there anything from, I heard about this briefly, is there anything from the city of Hamilton or from the province of Ontario that is encouraging ⁓ building ⁓ secondary units, say converting a garage into a rental just due to some of the problems that people are having with finding housing?

Robert Armstrong (27:49)

Yeah, definitely the provincial government has really tried to allow for more ⁓ unique ⁓ construction types, building types, know, things like tiny homes, garden suites, laneway homes. You know, we've definitely seen more of that type of development.

⁓ you know, with us having a ⁓ lot of aging properties, like there's some residential neighborhoods or old developments that don't really ⁓ serve the future needs that we have as a community. And so, you know, we're seeing more condominiums getting built, more mixed.

Alex Hobcraft (28:15)

.

Robert Armstrong (28:38)

retail and residential developments that are happening. ⁓

And so yeah, there is a lot of government support for that. Some cities are doing a better job than others of ⁓ supporting that process. Like I would say, Burlington is an excellent example of a city that's doing a really great job with helping to expedite that ⁓ permit application process and zoning requirements. And they're really... ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (28:45)

. .

Robert Armstrong (29:11)

They're supporting the industry by

helping to reduce some of the bureaucracy that's existed and cost barriers that have existed to doing some of this type of construction.

Alex Hobcraft (29:27)

That's great, because that is something that becomes a real frustration I know from a lot of people who've done renovations is just the red tape alone can make you start crying. So that's good to know that the government's on it. ⁓

Robert Armstrong (29:40)

living.

Alex Hobcraft (29:44)

So for an aspiring homeowner who's tackling a renovation, ⁓ what is one piece of advice that you would give ⁓ a family who are at the beginning stages ⁓ of a big renovation or a small one? ⁓ What's the one piece of advice that you could give them to make their ⁓ experience much smoother?

Robert Armstrong (30:12)

I would say that, you know, that you don't want to enter into a contract with, with anybody, ⁓ but especially not a, a builder or general contractor without having trust established and take the time that's needed to, to interview multiple contractors, ⁓ you know, or designers, ⁓ interior designers, if that's where you're starting with your

planning and your journey towards doing a renovation or a remodel of your home. ⁓ Make sure that you do meet at least with a few different builders ⁓ to gauge which one would be the best fit with you and which one you feel best represents your own personality, your own vision for the space. ⁓ You

Alex Hobcraft (30:40)

. you

Robert Armstrong (31:04)

know, that I would say is one piece of advice. ⁓

Alex Hobcraft (31:07)

Okay.

Robert Armstrong (31:08)

you know, having ⁓ an established plan or outline, ⁓ even if

Alex Hobcraft (31:09)

you

Robert Armstrong (31:12)

it's in point form, you know, if you're renovating, ⁓ you know, the main floor of your home, for example, and you want to try to get three apples to apples, you know, comparable quotes from three different contractors, I think it's important to know that.

that if you ⁓ specify and that you give those three contractors the same information about what you're looking for in the renovation, you'll get closer to having that, those comparables. Because otherwise it's kind of like with, if you were to give the same recipe to 10 different chefs, you'll get 10 different dishes. And I think the same is true for contractors if...

Alex Hobcraft (31:31)

Yeah

Robert Armstrong (31:54)

If you just walk through three contractors and have a slightly different conversation with each one and

expect to get three really comparable quotes, ⁓ you might be disappointed. It might be difficult for you to navigate and make those direct comparisons. So doing some preparation and kind of making a list of what are the must haves for your projects? What are some of the wants like would be nice to have elements for your project?

and just making sure that there's consistency in communicating those needs and wants to the contractors that you're considering.

Alex Hobcraft (32:29)

that's great. Well, Robert, I want to thank you for your time. It's been great chatting with you. ⁓ Hopefully we can do this again. And thank you so much for everything. And I think you've given the listeners a lot to think about.

Robert Armstrong (32:43)

Yeah, thanks Alex. It was fun and I'd be happy to connect with you anytime.

Alex Hobcraft (32:47)

That sounds great. All right, take care.

Robert Armstrong (32:50)

Alright, thanks very much. a great rest of your day.